I was born and grew up in Hong Kong. Both my parents had been in the US for college before moving back to Hong Kong, so I grew up bilingual in Cantonese and English. When I was 14, I went to Choate, a boarding school in Conneticut.
Then I went to Haverford College, a small liberal arts college outside of Philadelphia. It was in my sophomore year (1998-1999) that I took a required methodology course with Doug Davis where I learned the basics of conducting online survey research and made my first webpage. In the beginning of my junior year, a pair of seniors were carrying out research in exploring whether players of different game genres have different personalities. They chose Quake, StarCraft and EverQuest as the exemplar of 3 genres. At that time, none of us had ever played EQ, so we went and got a copy to try it out. I was the only one who liked the game.
So in the spring of my junior year, I took an independent study with Doug Davis to apply my skills in an area I was interested in - immersive online environments. At that time, there was a lack of quantitative data related to MMORPGs. Working with Doug Davis, I defined my research goals and collected narratives and demographic data from around 1000 EverQuest players through online surveys which I created, publicized, processed and analyzed statistically. Apart from the demographics, I also gathered qualitative data relating to the appeal of the environment, the in-game relationships that players developed, and gender dynamics.
For my senior thesis the following year (2000-2001), I continued my research in EverQuest by using my earlier findings to guide and structure a more quantitative project. I was interested in how age, gender, personality and play frequency interacted with a variety of issues – such as gender-bending, relationship formation, and in-game dynamics. I also collected data on the experience of playing the game with a real-life romantic partner, or playing with a child or parent, as well as exploring how individuals project or idealize their personalities onto their virtual personas and what they might learn from their online experiences.
Over the course of the year, I collected over survey data from about 4,000 respondents. I also developed and refined my methodology to be able to efficiently publicize my surveys, process large data files, and accumulate a growing respondent base. Early on, I realized the value of a sustained respondent base because I could collate data from an individual’s past and future surveys, thereby allowing me to ask more complex questions, as well as obtain rich profiles of individual users.
I also learned the importance of publicizing the findings of my research online. My research has been cited in the Washington Post, CBS, TechWeek, CNET, the Associated Press, Nature.com, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal among other news outlets. The work presented here has also been used as course reading at academic institutions, such as Stanford (History of Computer Game Design), UC Berkeley (Research Topics in HCI), U. of Washington (Intro. To New Media), U. Mass (Social Issues in Computing), Loyola New Orleans (Interactive Media), and Haverford College (Foundations of Personality).
After college, I worked about 2 years for Accenture Tech Labs, an R&D group in Chicago (2001-2003). During that time, I continued to collect data from online players and figured that I might as well go to grad school so I could spend more of my time studying virtual environments. In 2003, I started working towards a Ph.D. in Communication at Stanford University. At Stanford, I worked with Jeremy Bailenson in the Virtual Human Interaction Lab where we used immersive VR to study the psychology of social interaction and self-representation in virtual environments.
During my graduate career, I also worked for the Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) on their PlayOn Project. The project collected census data from 5 World of Warcraft servers via a Lua script 24/7 with a 15-minute interval. I helped analyze the data over a 2 year period. For example, we performed social network analyses on guilds and examined which metrics were most likely to lead to guild survivability over time.
For my dissertation work at Stanford, I examined how the appearance of an avatar can change how the user behaves both inside and outside the virtual environment. For example, in a series of several studies, we found that users in taller avatars negotiate more aggressively in the virtual environment and that this behavior carries over to other social interactions outside of the virtual environment. We dubbed this "the Proteus Effect".
After I graduated from Stanford in 2007, I started to work at PARC as a research scientist, which is where I am now. I'm also maintaining my ties with the VR lab at Stanford and working on several projects as well.
You are involved in a great and important work Nick. I hope to see this place become a community to help support your efforts. Your work and dedication is appreicated.
You've done an incredible job with this site -- I was taken aback by the amount of data and the thoughtfulness of the analysis. This is a great resource.
Thanks for doing all this great research Nick. It is really exciting work. I'm wondering whether your "How Many Accounts Does each Player have" question was referring to accounts within a game (double-boxing) or simultaneously playing two games (ie- EQ and DAOC). Is there any data on the latter? I was wondering whether Sir Bruce's MMOG subscription work (http://pw1.netcom.com/~sirbruce/Subscriptions.html) can be viewed as people or accounts...
This site/project is awesome. I always thought something like this would be incredibly useful and insightful back when I played more. Good job :)
Very nice work there, made me question myself a tad, but I'm still not sure of myself :-) Keep it up, it's a topic thats very interesting and you are doing a great job at it.
Very professional and highly cognitive site. I especially like that I have seen no bias in your studies or any other attempt to skew research to fit any preconceptions.
Please maintain that ingegrity and professionalism.
Hey, this is a great site. I just found it via web search and am impressed. Good work man.
Hey good work, Im well impressed like so many others :) I got this link from one of the players from NWN (Neverwinter Nights) in Exaria's site forums. Though Im gonna repost the link and tell them of how interesting this site is.
Well done, keep up the good work.. :)
Fantastic site which interests me on at least two levels. I was addicted to EQ off and on for a few years. Also, as a budding social scientist myself (working on a masters in Poli Sci), I am always looking for unique applications of statistical and theoretical methods, and this is one of the best I've seen. I hope I can find a subject as interesting and deep as MMORPG's in my research. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for your fine work! I was looking for some advice on running a guild on a search vehicle, and this link came up. So far I have found some helpful advice in just a half an hour of reading.
I founded my guild in EQ on June 6, 2000, and it is still running, but has gone through a lot of changes. My purpose for the guild was to practice random acts of kindness while gaming. Well it's been an interesting four years and I would love to tell you all about it sometime.
Thanks again! I will be back to read more. Keep going...you're doing fine!! :)
I've been following your work for years. Thank you so much. I surley hope the game developers make use of your most important data. Above all - keep the info free so our who community can benefit!
Excellent work, you are an asset to the computer industry, to intellectuals everywhere, and if this gaming-goes-mainstream thing keeps on happening, you will also have an impact on worldwide sociology.
Pдr the Swedish mercenary
A very clear and informative site!
I hope your project continues as rewarding as it's now. These studies & articles have also given me a spark in my media studies. Thank you for that!
Thanks for making this website, you've given me many ideas for my research dissertation which I will be conducting during the next year.
Ryan, Bournemouth, UK
Have you tried submitting your work to an academic journal? It's pioneering work what you have. I highly recommend submitting it to Cyberpsychology and Behavior.
Fascinating site. Your methods are sound, the results compelling, your analysis thorough, and the subject is a new, interesting, and relatively overlooked subject that is nonetheless relevant in today's world. I have referred countless friends and acquaintances to this site for the great read and large amounts of information.
Keep up the great work, and thanks again for making this site.
I am a high school student who is doing my final research paper for my College Composition class (My school offers college level courses) and am doing my project on MMOGs. You research has been invaluable to me -- I am citing your work and my instructor is most pleased at the professionalism that you display. Your work here is truely monumental -- a true gem of knowlege and insight into MMOGs.
I thank you for you research and efforts. I cannot correctly express how useful your information has been to me. Keep up the excellent work.
I'm currently writing an essay on MMORPG's for one of my classes, after seeing my friends' lives steadily transfer over to the virtual world. your site provides a lot of enlightening research!
after months of searching for a decent site offering insight to the physcological effects of video games i was finally satisfied with your site. it was the basis for my college pysch paper. i am going to recomend this site to my professor, i know he will be pleased with such a organized and imperical site. thank you for the plentitude of research
I love your site - both because I find it stimulating academically and I find it very relevant to my personal addiction. I'm starting a journal on it to help me deal, but I plan to read the rest of your website as time permits. I will likely quote you a whole bunch.
thanks Mr. Yee.
Nick, I agree that the term addiction is questionable, but many of the symptoms exhibited by gamblers, alcoholics, and other substance abusers are present in gamers and other problematic addictive behaviors involving our new technologies such as cell phones, blogging etc.. I admire your research especially since you have such a large N. I am an editor of CyberPsychology&Behavior and think you should submit an article. Currently I treat two major issues, problematic internet enabled sexual behavior(IESB) and gamers. I have been able to help them both in group and individual therapy by using a combination of readiness to change, cognitive therapy and motivational interviewing. Unlike you my sample is small because these are all people who are in face to face therapy. I am sorry this is such a long message. By the way, I am hoping to start a nonprofit referral list of for the large group who people who ask me for help for themselves, their families, other therapists and EAPs. Like you I have been on many TV show and cited in many media, which itself increases the number of requests for help that I get.Again, I congratulate you for your excellent work and hope to hear from you. One final comment I have also discovered my addictive behavior playing solitare and decided to start asking myt depressed patients what they did instead of going to their jobs or staying home alone. Again, I apologive for the length of this message.
Maressa Hecht Orzack, Ph.D.
Director,the Computer Addiction Treatment Center
Glad to see the progress you have made in your studies, very interresting!! Keep up the good work :)
Impressive. Nothing else to say.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. The fine line between gaming and addiction? Who really knows but your analysis has been a breakthrough and helped someone who's special to me.
Because I work in the gaming industry at one the world's leading Developer/Publisher from Korea, I came across your work and it's pretty breathtaking to see what you have done. I like professionalism and I sure admire people with intellect and the capacity to produce such work.
Keep it up
and thank you for making my work easier...
Jeez, man, you're probably the only one in earth that could help me! I'm making an economic research on MMORPGS and just can't find a thing about it (not even in the old friend google)
Do MMORPGs companies give infos like how much they spent in the whole process of making the game, how much they earn p/mo with it... This kind of stuff...
If you could give me even a simbolic help, that would be awsome.
Hi,Nick,I am impressed by your very nice work. I am sure that your wonderful work can help me out. Now I am working on an economic research on online game,and the research scope includes modelling the online game addiction, describing the Translog production function and forecasting the short-term profits of online game companies. I especially hope that you can share me with your research team members and your friends. My email address is firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com, each one is OK.Thanks!
Well great thanks for invalidating my life! I love naked women and internet gaming. So therefore according to your research I am in fact an addict no more in control of myself then an alcoholic?
Maybe you should list cronic researching for your phd as an addiction as well and balance out the life invalidating? how much time do you spend working on this per week? can I compare my time looking at porn and playing online games? what happens if we spend the same amount of time? we both have fun harm nobody else.
You of course can stop anytime, drop the project get a new job that does not involve proving how inferior other peoples life choices are to yours or to "Norms". I hope you enjoy your Football game/othersport/bodybuilding/cooking/reading whatever the heck else you do for fun this sunday because I will enjoy my porn and gaming.
Interesting and very thorough to say the least. I feel guilty for just going through the motions of my research and stat classes in college now. Wish I had taken them to heart so I can get a better grip on the ramifications and ideas posed by your studies. I especially liked the piece on gold farming. Just wanted to let you know your work is captivating even for those who lack a PhD and can barely speak coherently. And what a small world, after graduating in 04, I worked in Philly at a small ad agency. I rented an apt right down the street from Haverford College on Lancaster ave. I know...who cares right?
Greetings again Nick, this is Albert Ramos from the Philippines doing a similar research for my undergrad degree regarding the leisure satisfaction on online MMORPGS as a means of recreation...Just dropping for a courtesy call on your wonderful works. I'm trying to bring the awareness of such social changes in the manner of recreation here in the Philippines as there is no study of this sort as of now.
Kudos to your works and wishing you more support on this significant endeavor. ^_^
Hi again Nick:
I find myself reading over your site once again, as fascinated as I was the first time ... and frankly I think I'm using your site as a form of methadone, feeding my little addiction without returning to the game itself ... no harm, no foul, right?
But a question occurred to me that I'm sure you've answered here somewhere - but I can't find it.
Simply this: what *specifically* is your own history with gaming? Are you still gaming? What games? How many hrs/week? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Are you addicted? Does it matter?
I'd really like to hear your personal background in gaming, especially what you're doing now. Drop me an e-mail ... or maybe write an article on the subject.
One other thought that you might actually want to research. Something I've often wondered -- do "casual gamers" actually exist at all? If they do, how common is that phenomenon? Specifically in MMORPGS, are there REALLY people that just play a couple hours a week?
I'd be really curious to know. Also curious to know if any "problem" gamers can ever become "casual" gamers (yes - that's a selfish question with a personal motivation :) )
Anyway - thanks again for this fascinating research.
Frankly, I look at your whole site as being more about human nature and human psychology than about gaming itself ... the games are just sort of the lens you're looking through. I think there's a lot to learn about people and life here.
Take care, Nick.
I found your site through Stratics and I have been poking around here for over an hour. I like what you're doing. Playing as long as I have in the MMO I play, I've found there is a very fine line between the lives we live here in the real world and the ones we live in the screen. Once you cross the line it's very difficult to make your way back and then it's forever changed. I was wondering if you've done any surveys on how real life and gaming life intertwine.
Hey Jake - I started with EQ in 1999. I had heard about the game the summer before, but had no desire to pick up a copy. So it wasn't until the department got a copy that I started playing (see P2 in bio blurb above). I played a lot of EQ that first year (~20 hours a week), but somehow managed to balance everything. The research projects on EQ actually helped to take my mind off playing the game.
I've played most US-based MMOs that have come out after EQ. So I think the order goes: DAoC, Star Wars Galaxies, Ragnarok Online, City of Heroes, and then World of Warcraft. I'm still playing WoW right, playing 5 - 25 hours a week depending on my schedule. Because I'm a solo achiever/optimizer, I usually don't have problems putting the game aside when I need to.
I think you're "can problem gamers ever moderate their own game play" is a good question ... I need to think more about that one.
Great work! Wonderful data related to social interactivity...
Your work is outstanding. Online gaming is an interesting topic and very wide-spread with all sorts of information.
Your work is really something to be admired. I like how your one of the people in the group of friends to get hooked on the game EQ, same situation I have with my friends, only they tend to get addicted to online games in general, they just change what they want to play ever few months or so.
I truly admire all the wonderful work you are involved in. I am researching gaming addictions, and I found your articles to be invaluable.
Thanks for all your time and effort!
I would like to say that I loved your website and your research! There's so little documentation on MMORPG effects on the players (and therefore the society)! I had a great time reading it! I'm also a player and a "weekend researcher" about videogaming and its influences. (I like to know how psicology and other points of view see what me and my friend are doing for fun)
Please continue your work!!!
This is amazing work. I'm a World of Warcraft fan and have often wondered if I was "addicted" because the only real cause of arguments between my wife and I has been WoW. Reading what you have here helped educate and inform me about a behavior that could potentially become a serious problem.
Your impressive research on such an untouched field has been a treat to read! I plan on checking in regularly.
You got a nice page here... As i am in the final stage of my Sociology study here in Germany, i wright a small homework about MMORPGs myself these days. Most likely i will mention some of the work You did in my essay, as this webpage is a much more usefull resource in this field, than any other social scientific book ;-)
Good work, and keep it up!
I am a Honours Graduate in Industrial Psychology and i have a lot of friends that play World of Warcraft... I stumbled onto this site by accident while researching the term / acronym MMORPG. This is so interesting. I live in a small mining town in the south of Namibia called Rosh Pinah - but these friends of mine have friends all over the world. The world is not so small after all.
I've spent hours reading your site now and I find it all absolutely fascinating.
You are an amazing man.
You've studied just about everything you can in regards to MMOs, but I think there's one potential not yet fulfilled.
I think it would be fascinating to study the effect of MMORPGs over time, epsecially in relation to teenagers who play now.
The process would start now with a few teenagers with various playing styles and motivations. Then, a decade later, the effects of the game on their lives would be analyzed. I'm curious as to what effect gaming will have on all of us in the future.
Anyway, great work, man. Perhaps you should try publishing this in print form. You could probably even get money for further research...
Fabulous research. Someone in my guild on Firetree is doing graduate school work in this area too.
Erinynes Guild Member
Fabulous research. Someone in my guild on Firetree is doing graduate school work in this area too.
Erinynes Guild Member
your site helped me a lot with my senior project, which is on MMORPG addiction. Your lexicon is staggering and your research invaluable to my endeavors
I vaguely remember that you chose communications studies over psychology for grad school, but I don't remember the reasons. I've looked throughout the literature on video games and the majority are written by people from media studies, communications, comparative media, ludology, sociology and even film studies etc. but very little from psychology.
Why? What made them effective or different in studying video games from psychology? Does psychology have little interest in studying video games beyond aggression? I'm a bit worried about my grad choices.
And another thing just hit me (you should post these questions in terra nova), why do some online games fail or close down? How long would MMOGs be a part of culture before they fall into obscurity?
Janarius - That's a really good question that took me a while to understand as well. Here's how I've come to think about it.
Psych is primarily interested in fundamental/universal human behaviors. This wasn't apparent to me when I did Psych in undergrad. Something is only interesting in Psych in so much as it can tell us about people in general. This is why the deviant effects literature is the dominant video gaming literature in Psych, because they're arguing about a general effect of putting anyone in front of a video game. Of course, to me, what is interesting about MMOs is that it is a niche phenomenon and that it is incredibly context-dependent and context-rich. To me, it's less important that what I find is applicable to all people.
The other thing is that different disciplines have their preferred methodologies and those methods in turn shape what they view as "valuable" or "worthwhile" questions. In Psych, this is the experimental paradigm. The problem is that while the experimental paradigm is useful for certain questions, I feel that the most interesting things about online games (i.e., emergent social phenomenon, race and gender issues, etc.) can't be studied via experiments. I don't think you can really understand MMOs by bringing non-MMO players into a lab.
One of the reasons why Ted Castronova, Dmitri Williams, and I all ended up in Comm is because Comm tends to be more multidisciplinary and more open to a variety of methods and perspectives. Also, there is a tradition of studying different media and not simply asking normative questions.
This ultimately comes down to what methods and questions you feel are most interesting to you and most valuable to pursue. What I didn't fully understand when I applied to grad school was the degree to which different disciplines are bound by their methods and perspectives, and particularly the way that certain questions become deemed as "bad" or "uninteresting" questions.
Most undergrad programs tend to make it difficult to realize how differently other disciplines might approach the same topic. For students considering grad programs, I think the most important thing is to think about whether a program offers the methods and ways of exploring a topic in the way that matches your own interests.
I see what you mean...Thanks for the insight. I'll try to think of some questions that would be worthwhile for my grad thesis. If I ever get to grad school...
I am doing my discussion board uni homework and come across my wesbite. I am studying second degree in psychology course.
Thanks a lot for your survey research. I will give credit to you by putting citation in my work.(a compulsory requirement as you know :))
Is there any article about a MMORPG life span, the death and the aging of MMORPGS?
Would be interested.
i stumbled upon this website and the name "daedalus"...
it rings a bell somehow,
did you play diablo2? and did you by any chance frequent the gods-network forums?
Awesome work, I really appreciate this area getting the attention it deserves. It is both impressive and insightful. Thanks a lot!
Hi, Nick! Iґm the Art Director and Game Design of KefSensei.com a new game developer. When I first found this site I was very surprise! Thought that this kind of research wasn't made yet or wasn't published on internet. You have a wonderful resource is very helpful for the future MMORPG developents. This site transmit your passion, thxs for share your work!!.
This is fabulous work! I'm covering some of the same ground, but from the standpoint of ethical theory (I'm in Philosophy, not Sociology or Psych). The whole area is starting to get some attention in Phil of Mind and Action Theory as well.
I was referred by an anonymous commenter on a query I'd submitted to a critique blog, for the novel I co-authored about two women who met on a MMORPG and the gradually tangling of their virtual and real-life relationships. "Anonymous" thought I'd find your site valuable, and indeed, he was correct.
Extremely telling work! I read this with great interest, as a fellow Haverfordian with a background in sociology/philosophy, who's become a RP gamer and co-author of the above novel. Our fictionalized portrait of MMORPG gamers (in rl and in their avatar roles) illustrates many aspects of your research findings. The questions leading to our novel, about mediated relationships and new definitions of community, emerged during the experience of game play. Perhaps it's the 'Fordian way -- to analyze experience even while immersed in it.
A Joyce fan too perhaps?
Thank you Nick for your research in this field. I have been looking for articles, books, and research studies regarding online game addiction and teenagers. Your website provides tremendous qualitative and quantitative data that I find useful. Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Very impressive. Your work is invaluable in my research. Thank you so very much.
I am currently writing on a thesis describing the addictive nature of videogames. I cited this page (MLA) in my paper. Im actually going to school to make these denziens (videogames) and the information you provided really made me "wake up" and realize how important this subject really is. contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org if you would like a copy of my paper. :)
Great job ! I read carefully all I could on your website, this analysis is definitely something mmo's world need !
Great research. This info will be useful for our site, www.sifog.com, and countless other websites providing services in this niche.
Прикупил себе хрумер 5 (за 520$)
Докупил еще всяких модификаций к нему (тоже лицензионных)
Теперь могу предложить моему любимому форуму www.nickyee.com следающие возможности:
Прогон по каталогам:
База 32 000+ ! Даю также безобиный скрипт зеркало, который отразит каталог, и обавит вас в него! (NEW!)
Идет тесирование этого чуда, но уже ТИЦ понялся до 40-50 на нескольких сайтах.
Цена прогона - 25$ (после тестирование будет с разы дороже)
Гарантии - возврат денег, если ТИЦ 0, возврат 50% если ТИЦ 10.
Прогон по форумам:
Есть 2 вида, прогон по профилям (когда ссылка оставляется только в поле ДОМАШНЯЯ СТРАНИЦА (яндекс это поле виит хорошо)) и спам (но не тупой спам, а очень даже умный =). С использований спец. фишек, что админ форума не заметит спама, а ссылка будет оставлена.
Есть 2 базы, базы по сравнению с другими, очень даже дорогие:
Рус. база и англ. база.
Рус. база - 850 000 форумов
Англ. база - 1 500 000 форумов
Рус. база (прогон по профилям) - 30$
Англ. база (прогон по профилям) - 60$
Рус. база (спам) - 40$
Англ. база (спам) - 80$
(Также возможен прогон по половинам/четвертям баз)
Прогон по доскам:
База 2000 досок, на движке WR-Board который яндекс любит.
Цена - 10$.
Сами по себе доски не так уж много дают, но в комплекте с каталогами, получается просто отлично!
Прогон по гостевым:
Есть также 2 базы (рус. и англ.)
Рус. - 125 000
Англ. - 150 000
Рус. - 18$
Англ - 20$
Прогон по блогам:
База 150 000 блогов.
Цена - 20$
как видите, я беру качеством. Также, у меня огромное кол-во все возможных прогонов. А цены очень низки!
Есть также прогон по ДЛЕ сайтам, кого интересует, добро пожаловать в аську!
ICQ - 200053130
Email - email@example.com
Объсужение прогонов можите вести в этой теме. Также, отзывы просьба оставлять тоже тут.
P.S. В личку просьба не писать! Могу не ответить!
P.P.S. После прогонов, еси все правильно седалть, можно выйти в топ по малоконкурентным запросам.
Я также еще и сеошник =). Подбираю ВЧ запросы и вывожу их в топ! Самые дешевые цены в рунете! Качество на высшем уровне! Так же, поднимаю ТИЦ...
Ну чтож, поехали =)
A few years I have been following and participating my personal gamer statistics in your projects. I have found it fascinating research and have quite enjoyed reading everything. I am a bit saddened that you are going into "hibernation" but I fully understand, having given up five years of my life with EQ, some times you need to hibernate or unplug. Best wishes and brightest blessings to you on all your future ventures!
37 F gamer grrrl (woman),
Mr. Yee, I’m sorry because my English not so good.
My name is William, I am student at Surabaya University, Indonesia. I want to make study about MMORPG in here at my home town Surabaya. I already read your journal and that amazing and that’s so complete to help me work on my paper. But i want to ask you about your survey question’s that you release to gain data. I want to have a look at your survey question so I can get little sigth about making question that motivate people to play MMORPG harder. And few thing about the GOLDMINER player, in Indonesia that’s a lot people like to become a goldminer. They trading game stuff in real money. So I want to take a look your survey question about motivation that people playing MMORPG.
Thanks a lot mr Yee.
Sorry not e-mailing you because i don't know hout to use microsoft outlook. THX
The site is absolutely wonderful :))) I cannot imagine how could you work so much. And I would like to thank you for making it public.
Thank you :)
Thanks for all your great work! I was wondering though, do you have any data on the languages spoken by US WOW players, i.e. English first language, Spanish second, etc? Or for that matter, country of origin? I'm studying applied linguistics and I'm curious as to how many players come from places like India, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Are you able to suggest how I could best find this information?
UkgdnZ Pleased to read intelligent thoughts in Russian. I`ve been living in England for already 5 years!....
Залив на ваши карты,50% на 50%,предоставлю реальные гарантии,транш от 50000р,деньги за воздух не беру,связь со мной - "r.e.a.l.g.u.l.f.собака.qip.ru" чайникам убрать лишние точки.ICQ - Шесть,три,четыре,сто сорок шесть,девять,пять,один....
Давно эта тема не поднималась)
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